This article is the result of an interview conducted by PasseportSanté with Dr. Marc Lebel and Céline Arsenault, naturopath. It is the reproduction of an oral conversation and as such does not present any references. Thus, the remarks mentioned in this article engage only their author.

D^r Marc Lebel – Yes, they are very safe. They can cause mild side effects which are well known and the frequency of which varies from vaccine to vaccine: pain, tenderness, fever. They can also cause serious side effects like meningitis, but it is very rare, much rarer than the serious complications of the diseases against which one is vaccinated. In the case of measles, for example, 1 in 1 children had meningitis before mass immunization. Currently, the vaccine is estimated to cause meningitis in only 000 in 1 million cases.

Céline Arsenault, Naturopath – They are not as safe as they say. The problem with vaccine safety is that tracking short, medium and long term side effects is not well done. Unless the child has an immediate reaction, it will not be related to an ear infection that starts in the days that follow, a flare-up of eczema, a seizure or even sudden infant death. The direct link is difficult to establish and the very principle of vaccination being untouchable, doctors are often hesitant or even reluctant to recognize that there may be a link.

D^r Marc Lebel – Yes, their efficiency is very good and reaches 90% to 95% for some of them. The pertussis vaccine is a little less effective, 80% to 85%, but even if a vaccinated child gets the disease, it should be remembered that it will be less severe than if it had not been immunized. .

Celine Arsenault, Naturopath— Yes, some have some effectiveness, but at what cost? Each individual is unique, so it is impossible to know in advance a person’s immune response to a vaccine. For reasons that are not yet known, it can only be seen that some vaccinated people do not develop the antibodies as expected and yet they will not necessarily contract the disease. Just as we also see outbreaks of diseases such as whooping cough in populations that have been fully vaccinated. By the way, how many women of childbearing age now need to receive the rubella vaccine again in anticipation of a second pregnancy? Indeed, during the follow-up of the first pregnancy, the blood tests revealed that they did not have enough antibodies to be protected against this disease. In the past when you caught rubella as a child, 85% of women were immune for life.

D^r Marc Lebel – Children must be protected early in life, as this is when the risk of contracting certain diseases such as whooping cough or Haemophilus influenza type B (Hib) is the highest and most severe. Every day, children, like adults, come into continuous contact with hundreds and thousands of antigens, which are substances that can trigger an immune response. Our immune system is designed for that. In addition, although we are immunized against more diseases today, vaccines contain much less antigens than before. For example, compared to the 1980s, the total number of antigens in the vaccine set has increased from 3 to around 000. Vaccines are much more purified, thanks to genetic engineering and molecular biology. And, anyway, I often say that there are worse than vaccines, and this is the daycare, the kingdom of sharing germs. Children are exposed to a multitude of bacteria and viruses there. They are often sick, but still develop normally.

Celine Arsenault, Naturopath— No, because their immune system is not mature. The maturity of the immune system must be acquired over time and it grows in contact with microbes, both bad and good. In addition, the way vaccines are given breaks all barriers to the normal and natural functioning of the immune system. A fragment of bacteria or virus is injected directly into the body, while when a child comes into contact with germs, his skin, saliva and mucous membranes will serve as a natural barrier to eliminate these germs. If they fail and the microbe enters the body, the broad spectrum macrophages will take over. The first barrier will act and the microbe will not necessarily go to the second defense barrier, that is to say the synthesis of antibodies. Vaccination has a very different impact because it bypasses the body’s vigilance system. The microbe is parachuted directly into the fortress, which impairs the balance of the development of immunity. In addition, when an injection contains four or even five different vaccines, how can one know, if there is a problem, what the child has reacted to? Finally, I never recommend having several injections done on the same day. It is too much aggression for a young child, even beyond what the vaccines contain.

D^r Marc Lebel – Several very reliable and large-scale studies demonstrate the lack of link between vaccination and these diseases. Some were made in Canada and they are very solid. It is easier to start a rumor than to show a link between vaccination and autism or asthma. A temporal association does not constitute proof of a cause and effect link.

Celine Arsenault, Naturopath— Vaccinations are part of the problem. Even if a large part of the medical profession denies it, we know that children are weakened by various pollutants in their mother’s own breast, before their birth. People don’t know that vaccines contain many chemicals. Although thimerosal (a derivative of mercury) has been removed from major vaccines, these contain, and this is just one example, aluminum hydroxide, a compound toxic to the nervous system. They also contain formaldehyde, a recognized carcinogenic compound, and antibiotic residues. How can we know, when a child is born, what doses of toxic products, even minimal, he will be able to tolerate? In addition, in some more fragile children, vaccines can be the promoter, among others, which causes hyperactivity, autism, concentration disorders. The flu vaccine that is given to children still contains thimerosal. There is no reason, because there is no proven link between this compound and autism, to inject children with the most toxic chemical known! Where is the precautionary principle?

D^r Marc Lebel – When chickenpox affected most of the children, we received, in Sainte-Justine alone, more than a hundred children suffering from complications. In Quebec, the number of hospitalizations was 1 in 400. Forty years ago, children generally caught chickenpox in elementary school, then they contracted it earlier, in daycare or at school. kindergarten. The disease is most often mild, but the average number of lesions is 40 to 300, and it stings a lot. Very young children scratch a lot more, which greatly increases the risk of superinfection of wounds. This superinfection in turn increases the risk of serious infection with Streptococcus A, which is colloquially known as the flesh-eating bacteria. I have seen many parents in the hospital who said they did not know that chickenpox could be so serious. They told me that if they had known, they would have had their child vaccinated, even when the vaccine was not yet free.

Celine Arsenault, Naturopath—  Yes, it is preferable, because illness, in general, protects for life. Chickenpox, for example, builds a child’s immune capacity and gives them antibodies for life against this disease. When you contract it at the right age, it is an easy disease. However, children aged 1 to 2 who are in daycare are exposed to more germs, so they are sick more often and antibiotic intake is high. As a result, their immune system, always stressed, weakens and they can develop a complication of chickenpox, whereas in normal times, it is a mild disease. And above all, we forget that childhood infectious diseases are benign for the majority of children. I believe that we have also underestimated the positive contribution of these small diseases on the reinforcement of their immune system. The other question that must be asked concerns the level of antibodies that future mothers will have when they procreate. Because, currently, the antibodies of mothers who contracted chickenpox in their childhood protect the young baby against this disease. It is the same with measles. In 25 years, will these vaccinated girls have to be vaccinated again because the vaccine will not have immunized them for life? Some data allow us to think so⁶.

D^r Marc Lebel – It depends on the vaccines. There are a few, such as acute illness, moderate to severe, with or without fever: it’s up to the nurse or doctor to assess this. You also do not vaccinate if you have a severe allergic reaction to the first injection or if you have a known severe allergy to any component of the vaccine. But a simple fever, cold or diarrhea are not absolute contraindications, nor the fact that the child takes antibiotics at the time of the injection.

Celine Arsenault, Naturopath— It is a matter of common sense. I never advise a parent to immunize a sick child, regardless of the illness or its severity. If he is sick or is taking antibiotics, he is already fighting something, now is not the time to inject him with one or more vaccines. I advise parents to vaccinate their child only if he is in good shape. In addition, if the child has already reacted badly to a vaccine, it would be more prudent to be well informed about the risks associated with this disease against which we want to protect him. If these risks are acceptable to parents, they may decide to avoid this vaccine.

D^r Marc Lebel – Yes quite. It is true that there has been great progress in public health thanks to the improvement of lifestyles, which in particular has reduced the mortality of people with these diseases. However, we have at least two recent examples that demonstrate the effectiveness of vaccination. In the 1990s, nothing changed from a hygienic point of view when the vaccine was introduced against invasive infections caused by Haemophilus influenza type B (Hib). This bacterium was the most frequent cause of meningitis, with 80 to 85 hospitalizations per year here in Sainte-Justine. Currently we see only 0 to 2 cases per year, and these are unvaccinated children. The picture is much the same in the case of the pneumococcal vaccine, which was introduced in the 2000s. The pneumococcus was also a cause of childhood meningitis.

Celine Arsenault, Naturopath— When it comes to childhood illnesses, mass vaccination is only partially linked to their decline. Hygiene, safe water and quarantine have also played an important role in the control of infectious diseases. But vaccines have consequences that are not only positive for children’s health. We must open the debate and ask questions about their safety, their real effectiveness and the financial cost in relation to the results obtained. There are far fewer children hospitalized for complications from childhood illnesses like measles or mumps, but the big question is, since we vaccinate children against all these illnesses, there is less? children in hospitals? Are they less sick? Are today’s children more balanced, stronger and healthier than in the past? I leave it to the parents to answer this question.

D^r Marc Lebel – Although I highly recommend vaccination, I respect parents’ decision not to vaccinate. However, I present them with the global portrait of the diseases, their current prevalence and their complications. I encourage them to go to sites such as the Canadian Pediatric Society, the Quebec Immunization Protocol or the Canadian Coalition for the Promotion of Vaccination. If they choose not to be vaccinated, they must be able to cope with the fact that their child can get measles, for example, an illness that can become serious. It is true that the percentage of complications from measles or chickenpox is low, but it is real and it is significantly higher than that of serious side effects of vaccines, which are very rare. Not having your child vaccinated is a bit like not using a car seat or a seat belt because you think you won’t have an accident.

Celine Arsenault, Naturopath— I tell them that they can choose in an informed way, rather than completely relying on doctors who see this practice as a dogma that is forbidden to question. There is a risk in not getting vaccinated and there is a risk in getting vaccinated. Some feel better about the decision not to get vaccinated, but each parent has to live with their choice. It all depends on how you perceive health, germs, disease and the immune system. Vaccination involves specific immunity: for a given disease, a specific antibody that will not be used for anything else. But how can we win this battle? There are countless viruses and bacteria that are constantly evolving and mutating, because that is the very essence of life! It is in this chapter that naturopathy and classical medicine do not speak the same language. Rather than bombarding the immune system with specific vaccines, we need to strengthen the individual’s ground so that they are prepared for any eventuality.