Mathieu Ricard: “Goodwill is a sign of intelligence”

Psychologies : How would you explain our current interest in values ​​such as kindness?

Mathieu Ricard Mathieu Ricard: We are aware that altruism, responsiveness and kindness are part of our nature. Although this is not news at all. Darwin also talked about the need for mutual assistance for the evolution of both people and animals, and Adam Smith pointed out the important role of cooperation in the economy. But since the beginning of the XNUMXth century, new theories have gained popularity. Freud proclaimed that altruism is a compensation for the desire to harm others, thereby instilling in society that selfishness is a sign of mental health. Economists have said that altruism is bad for productivity. Scientists began to talk about the “selfish gene”*, and philosophers began to extol the “virtue of selfishness”**… But today we are returning to the old ideas. Recent research by psychologist Daniel Batson confirms that true altruism does exist***; The economist Ernst Fehr argues in his papers that this type of relationship must be taken into account when designing economic models****.

But why now?

M.R. M.R.: Because with the advent of the era of globalization, we clearly feel that we are all in the same boat. In the face of global environmental challenges, as we watch the gap between rich and poor, between North and South, deepen, we understand that the time for competition is over, now cooperation is needed. Without it, we will all be losers. We are clearly aware that the notorious individualism and selfishness bring us misfortune. Because of them, we feel lonely, delve too much into ourselves and fall into a depressed state …

But in fact, aggression and alienation rather reign among us …

M.R. M.R.: Do they really reign? Or maybe we are so shocked because it is contrary to our nature? Let’s say you’re standing on the side of the road in front of your car with a flat tire and no one stops to help you. How do you react? You are outraged! If selfishness were a common property of all people, it would not shock us. And we wouldn’t feel so bad after having manifested it ourselves.

But just wanting to be kind is not enough! After all, we often behave like selfish people without even realizing it. It comes from within and turns out to be stronger than our attitudes.

M.R. M.R.: If you don’t understand that selfishness makes you unhappy, then spend the weekend cultivating only it in yourself, and see how you feel on Sunday evening. And try to spend the next weekend under the sign of altruism and compare your feelings. Openness and attention to the needs of another brings us a feeling of lightness. Because this behavior corresponds to the real state of affairs: we are all dependent on each other.

That is, you do not admit that we can have selfish inclinations?

M.R. M.R.: Well, why not at all! I am a mixture of light and darkness, but the question is what consequences for my well-being entail my selfish or, conversely, altruistic behavior. The tides of hatred and envy come quickly and easily overwhelm us. However, in order to understand why we suffer or, on the contrary, feel good, we need time. And in order to develop altruism in yourself, you need to train the spirit.

By spiritual training you mean

M.R. M.R.: Yes, but not necessarily as a method of spiritual oriental practice. Etymologically, the word “meditate” has two meanings: “think about a question from all sides” and “take care of something.” This is thought work. It happens, for example, when we develop the ability to concentrate attention, when we show selfless love. This work also consists in accepting the fact of the impermanence and at the same time of the interdependence of things and living beings.

And what exactly would you advise to do on such days when we would like to be kinder to our loved ones, but against our will we behave unbearably?

M.R. M.R.: Say to yourself: “Yes, of course, I behaved badly, but deep down I do not want to suffer myself or cause suffering to others. And the person who irritates me so much, he also behaves badly towards himself and others – but he does not wake up in the morning with a desire to cause someone suffering. If my desire to be happy is so important to me, I should respect his desire for the same.” This is the first step: to recognize yourself as a person connected to others who deserve respect in the same way. Then one must develop in oneself the capacity for unselfish love. It is easy to start with a close being: your child, life partner, cats… Think about him, and let the flow of love for him grow in your mind. Do this for twenty minutes every day. Within a month, you will begin to change, and when you encounter a difficult situation, it will be easier for you to cope with it. Research in the field of neuroplasticity reveals structural and functional changes in the brains of meditators: two to three months of such altruistic meditation for half an hour a day already brings significant improvements, for example, a decrease in the tendency to anxiety, to painful soul-searching, and depression.

But is there any point in cultivating kindness and responsiveness in ourselves when we live in a world that affirms opposite things?

M.R. M.R.: I believe in the “raindrop effect”: first a few drops fall on the pavement, then others are added to them, then a puddle appears, and soon all the asphalt is wet. These “breaking points” in the public consciousness are first determined by non-governmental organizations, socially active individuals, intellectuals, and thought leaders. And then our natural tendency to imitate comes into play. This is how culture changes happen.

Can a person ever get better?

M.R. M.R.: Philosopher Andre Comte-Sponville says modern man is no better Aristotle Only societies change. From a scientific point of view, this means that Aristotle and we have the same genes, and for them to change, fifty thousand years must pass. But thanks to work in the field of epigenetics, we know that against this stable background, some genes are expressed and others are not, and those that have not expressed themselves for many generations can suddenly do this under the influence of an external stimulus. And neuroplasticity research also shows that being in a certain environment is reflected in the configuration of our brain. So if we grow up in a culture where altruism is preached, we will be different, even if our genes are the same as Aristotle, who advocated slavery! With all this, you don’t have to wait until the world changes in order to change yourself! As the Dalai Lama says, “There can be no external disarmament without internal disarmament.”

You are talking about the Dalai Lama, who for many is the very epitome of altruism. However, this is not enough to cope with the difficult situation in which his people find themselves …

M.R. M.R.: Do you think if we started blowing up Chinese Boeings and went on a spiral of revenge, the Tibetan people would suffer less? When there is the slightest hope of negotiations between Israel and Palestine, they give the Nobel Prize for it. And when the Dalai Lama from the very beginning shows a desire and readiness for dialogue, they say about him that he is weak! But the desire to open up to meet other people is not a manifestation of weakness, but of the mind.

And yet, sometimes we are afraid to show kindness: what if it will be perceived as a confession of weakness and we will be crushed?

M.R. M.R.Q: What is the alternative? The other person behaves badly, you do the same, and in the end everyone loses. When a man insulted the Buddha, he asked him, “If someone hands you a gift and you do not take it, then in whose hands does it remain?” The man replied: “In the hands of the one who wanted to give it.” AND Buddha said: “So, if I do not accept your unkind words, they remain with you!”

*R. Dawkins, The Selfish Gene (World, 1993).

** A. Rand “The concept of egoism” (Association of businessmen of St. Petersburg, Model, 1995).

*** C. D. Batson «Altruism in Humans» (Oxford University Press, 2011).

**** Journal of Economic Perspectives, 2005, vol. 14, № 3.