Contents
What is friendship based on and what does it mean in our life? Thinking old friends, poet Bakhyt Kenzheev and prose writer Petr Obraztsov.
Poet Bakhyt Kenzheev and prose writer Petr Obraztsov have known each other for many years. Bakhyt moved to Canada more than 30 years ago, then to the USA, and Peter never left Moscow for a long time. Two friends reflect on the bond between us and what friendship means in their lives.
Bakhyt Kenzheev: Discussing relationships – what an idea! Do you know why there are more gay people in the US than you would expect based on biological proportions? Because American girls are very emancipated and often say: “Let’s discuss our relationship.” It’s boring! And it is not necessary to discuss the relationship with a man.
Petr Obraztsov: Behind the “discussion” something unpleasant is always imagined. Of course, we have never done this. But the more interesting to think about. Let’s try it and see what happens.
About female jealousy
P. O .: I don’t remember that any of the women was jealous of our friendship … except for my mother. She believed that Bakhyt had a bad effect on me. But my wife is not, but Bakhyt found her for me, Lyuba is his classmate.
B.K.: If there was jealousy, it was not “against”, but “for”. Once a certain poet, having drunk, began to say: “You, Bakhyt, are rubbish like a person.” The next day, the wife said that she was refusing him from the house: “I cannot allow my husband to be offended in my house!”
I think jealousy is stupid. I have my own philosophy about the relationship of my girlfriends with other people. I like it when they have their own circle of friends, and I expect the same attitude towards myself. We have love, that is, a creative relationship with a woman, we also have relationships with our own gender, which is tuned to the same as we are. And it is strange when a girl wants to monopolize a man, to take possession of him completely.
P. O .: If a tough choice is made: “either me or your friends,” he breaks up with the girl, and not with his friends.
B.K.: When a girl is jealous of me for Petya, it seems to her that my life is not completely devoted to her, she does not get some part of me. But it is pointless to choose, there must be both – otherwise harmony is impossible, and yet we strive for harmony.
Many became unhappy just because they could not understand that their chosen one was not ready to devote her whole life to cooing.
Relationships with the opposite sex are the biggest and most romantic part of life. But we have many other things besides the genitals. We are Homo sapiens and our interests extend to the whole world.
Men also do not replace the rest of the world for girls. And many became unhappy only because they could not understand that their chosen one was not ready to devote her whole life to cooing, she had other requests. Life is not about old-world landowners, although it is one of my favorite novels.
Encounter according to Freud
P. O .: We met in the construction team after the first year, 45 years ago. Together we were carrying some kind of piece of iron and for some reason started talking about Freud. I don’t remember who, but one of us said the word “libido”, then very few people knew. The second one made a stand for it. And it turned out that we both read the book “Pavlov and Freud”, which contained, of course, harsh criticism of Freudianism, but was, nevertheless, rare.
B.K.: I will say sentimentally: the book “Pavlov and Freud” was an external thing. And friendship is determined by the coincidence of some internal vibrations. Sometimes I meet a person and I understand: this is my friend. This is a rarity and a great holiday. And among my friends there are those whom I met later. But it is symptomatic that they all also turned out to be Petya’s friends, which was not known in advance.
Parting
B.K.: We met in 1968, and in 82 I left the country.
P. O .: It was very hard, on the wires at the airport, I just cried. It was a disaster, a tragedy. Because it was forever. In those days there was no hope of returning.
B.K.: What do you think I was doing when the plane took off? I cried all the way. I kept my Soviet passport, hoping that I would come back in four months. But he came after four years.
P. O .: We talked on the phone, but it seemed that the distance between us was insurmountable. When the bell rang four years later and I heard Bakhyt’s voice, I lost consciousness. Maybe just for a second, but it was a big blow. He arrived without warning and called from Moscow.
If not you…
B.K.: If it were not for this friendship, I would not exist … But I’m not going to express my endless love here on the pages of history!
P. O .: Of course, I will not say such loud things. We could not meet, and then it would be something else. But the meeting with Bakhyt and our long communication formed 90 percent of my current spiritual state. Right up to my current studies – I worked as a stupid researcher at a chemical institute, and probably would have continued like this if I had not started writing – thanks to Bakhyt: he dragged me to the Luch studio, I started with poetry and finally I ended up doing what I needed.
B.K.: I have 16 books published. What do I owe to Petya as a poet? Petya performed in my life the rite of ridicule of the victor, once adopted in ancient Rome. Whatever I write, he says it’s rubbish and stupid. And it is right. A person should not be arrogant.
P. O .: And you never got offended?
B.K.: Of course not, you have special rights. And I love you not for how you feel about my poetry.
Male friendship
B.K.: Male and female friendship – no, don’t divide like that! We are not limited by sexual function, and although we differ from each other, these are innocent differences. Regardless of gender, we need those who are doing the same thing as us, and at the same level. If I like to sculpt mice from clay, I do not go to Michelangelo, but to those who love to sculpt mice.
It is believed that women like to talk about cooking, and men about sports. I love – about cooking, I have friends with whom I discuss how to bake pies. Let life be varied.
P. O .: Disagree. “The disinterested friendship of men,” as the old song used to say, does not exist in search of diversity. On the contrary, we are talking about a point hit, an exact match – it is important to find such a person with whom you can speak completely frankly, discuss everything that really worries you. This may not happen to everyone!
We are friends with people of the same sex because we have the same ideas about life
And yet, men and women have different ideas about life, and that’s why we are friends with people of the same sex with us, because these ideas coincide with us.
Out of competition
P. O .: We have never been in love with the same girl, despite the fact that we had many love affairs. It happened that I received girls from Bakhyt “by inheritance”, but we never wanted the same one at the same time. Yes, and these stories with a continuation, perhaps, were mostly invented by the girls themselves – because Bakhyt did not have much love for them either, but just some kind of relationship, and then the girl began to be interested in his friend, quite a common thing.
We somehow made love with Bakhyt with one girl, the three of us. The idea was hers – she admitted that she had such unsatisfied sexual dreams, and chose Bakhyt and me as experimental subjects. I did not like. The girl was pretty, but I understood that I would prefer to be alone with her.
Make friends with women
B.K.: The mystical difference between men and women! .. There are close friends with whom I did not have any carnal relations. Nevertheless, there is always an invisible residue – I cannot look at even the most intelligent woman without a secret desire. This is how the Lord created us, it is illogical, but beautiful.
P. O .: I don’t believe in friendship with a woman. I admit that this happens, but I do not believe! Common interests, conversations – behind this is an attraction, not necessarily expressed and even conscious, but it is always there. And if erotic feelings leave a relationship with a woman, then soon everything else turns sour, and you no longer want to talk about anything.
B.K.: Yes, this is Petya’s formula about friendship with a woman: “either before, or after, or during, but never instead.” Probably so. And I don’t see why you should be upset about it! The existence of two poles – men and women – makes the world charged. But sometimes you just want to discuss world problems without this charge.
For example, Petya and I are talking about the fate of the bill. We talk for a long time and pleasantly – but if in Petya’s place there was a woman, good and smart, all the same, instead of discussing the bill, I would begin to look at her “upper department”, and this would disrupt the flow of my thoughts.
And yet, love?
B.K.: There are obligations in love, unfortunately. Not in friendship. None, except for the only thing – if a friend is sick, you need to visit him.
P. O .: Love and friendship differ in the amount of forgiveness. When you love, you forgive a lot. When Bakhyt, for example, arrives, all I do is clean up. I hate sloppiness – but he spills glasses and shakes the ashes anywhere, and I reconciled! In this sense, we rather love.
I do not think that he is the only person with whom I could match in terms of attitude. But there is some factor – it is difficult to define it, but it is there – because of which we choose another person. And in love between a man and a woman, he also exists – after all, almost everyone wants to possess, and love does not always arise.