«We always have the opportunity to rejoice»

Psychologies: Is joy different from happiness?

Charles Pepin: Happiness corresponds to a state of constant satisfaction, which has a reason: there are reasons to be happy. As for joy, it flares up suddenly and without a specific reason. However, if we already feel it, it is far superior to us. For example, I smell hot coffee or a ray of sunshine on my cheek, and suddenly I am overwhelmed with great joy. That’s why we say «mad with joy». It cannot be said that we are happy if we are faced with illness, suffering, financial difficulties, but joy can still visit us. We all have such a personal experience when one day we felt that she had embraced us.

Where does this emotion come from?

Sh.P .: From existence itself. Even if I do not know this, I can feel that the world might not exist, that I might not exist in the world, and yet I still live in this world. Joy is the feeling that living in this world is a real miracle. And it is in this sense that joy is a miracle accessible to all. When nothing else is possible, joy is still possible.

Then, paradoxically, periods of crisis are especially favorable for joy?

Sh.P .: Exactly! Because when life is hard, we have more opportunities to move closer to pure joy, as the Stoics, the apostles, or Henri Bergson so well showed us. Why is that? Because when we are happy because of our narcissistic contentment, when we have success, comfort, love, and so on, we have «reasons» for being content. It looks like joy, but it’s not. The purest joy arises when we have rid ourselves of objective reasons for rejoicing. It is not attached to my “little “I”, it is not “my little joy”, it is the joy of the whole world: as if through me the world rejoiced that it exists.

You say that it suddenly manifests itself for no reason: does it mean that we cannot cultivate it in ourselves, nurture it?

Sh.P .: On the contrary, I believe in the pedagogy of joy. The first point is to stop “hoping”, to stop idealizing a situation that should happen. It’s not just about accepting the present — and that’s easier said than done! We need to really fight against the ideology of hope that our era so actively encourages. By repeating to the most destitute: “you need to believe in the best”, “you have reason to hope”, we increase their suffering, because, on the one hand, when I hope for improvement and see that it does not come, I add more to my misfortune and disappointment. On the other hand, it prevents me from loving what is already there, because it shifts my energy and my strength to what is not at the moment.

And then what? How to learn to «love» what is?

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Sh.P .: This is the second step: to become an Epicurean in the noble sense of the word. In other words, to understand that the world is an accident; life, water, sun, everything that I like exists, although there is no reason for it. And the third step is to practice. The more we acknowledge that we have this resource, even in adverse circumstances, the easier it is for us to activate it. Even though this does not mean, of course, the absence of suffering!

In «Hymn to Joy»¹ you even say that joy is born out of adversity. Why?

Sh.P .: Because suffering connects us with reality, and in reality joy already arises. We often live in isolation from reality: we hover, idealize, dream… This is where sadness arises: “I could have been born there, but no”, “I could have been like that or have it, but no…”. And vice versa, what happens at the moment of suffering, disillusionment, failure, in difficult times? We run into a reality that resists us. And there is room for joy.

But dissatisfaction is a stimulus, an engine. To learn to love the tragic on the pretext that it gives us opportunities for joy—isn’t that a perversion?

Sh.P .: It’s not about giving value to suffering, but rather that by taking this necessary step, we can find the strength to make a difference. As Seneca says, if you have the strength to accept what you cannot change, the courage to change what you can change, and the intelligence to distinguish one from the other, then you are not afraid of anything. This philosophy, which is considered fatalistic, is actually a philosophy of action. But its premise is joyful acceptance. We, modern people, are mistaken in believing that we can change everything. It is because of this that we constantly crash into the wall of disappointment with all our might.

So moments of joy can be used as a tool?

Sh.P .: Perhaps. There is evil, there is pain, there is even absolute evil. But joy is also an absolute that we can oppose to evil, and thus find the energy to change the world for the better where possible. Life is creativity, says Henri Bergson, and my joy comes from the fact that I participate in this creativity.

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And how exactly can you participate in this work?

Sh.P .: Having children, organizing your own company, creating works, caring for your garden … In general, “doing”. I meet so many employees in large enterprises who tell me: “I don’t know what my profession is, I go to meetings, to debrief meetings … But in the end, what do I do?” To experience joy, one must participate in what is real. Tangible.

But at the same time, you show that many are suspicious of an excess of joy.

Sh.P .: Yes, for gloomy people, joy is a scandal. As if they want to plunge into the eternal twilight and are angry at those who got out of them with the help of joy. Joy is also scandalous in the eyes of all those who think that in our reality there is nothing attractive at all. But we know: who in history killed the most, who caused the most evil? Those who wanted to change «everything»! Those who were infinitely far from this joyful power of accepting reality! You will not find a single criminal among those who live in joy.

Why do you use psychoanalysis in your book?

Sh.P .: But Freud is German for “joy”! Seriously speaking, I consider psychoanalysis accomplished when at last we leave dreams, reproaches and idealization. When we become able to accept ourselves as we are. Unlike some therapies that suggest «reprogramming» or «transforming» us, psychoanalysis says you will not change, but you will be able to hear the real you. And this, in my experience, becomes an occasion for true rejoicing!

Even though this jubilation will fade with time?

Sh.P .: Yes, jubilation is temporary, but it can always happen again. That’s what makes life interesting, right? In general, I see a connection between lasting happiness and bursts of joy: they show us that we can be happy no matter what happens. It’s just that when others make the pursuit of happiness a goal, I say that happiness is possible, but there’s nothing wrong with not having it. Because it is always available to us — joy.

¹ «Ode to Joy» (Allary Editions, 2015).