Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi: «We can learn to be happy»

The psychologist knows what he’s talking about, because he discovered the «flow» — probably the most accessible and most useful form of happiness.

Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi descends into the hotel lobby exactly at the time appointed for the interview — just at the moment when the receptionist assures me that there is no guest with that name. “It’s okay,” Csikszentmihalyi smiles. — I have long been accustomed to the fact that no one is able to pronounce or write down my name. So I decided to go down so you don’t have to look for me all day.»

Perhaps he exaggerates a little. The name of Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi is one of the most famous in today’s science. It is spoken without hesitation by students and professors of psychology departments around the world, it is referenced in hundreds of modern psychological studies. The New York Times called him «a scientist obsessed with happiness.» More precisely, you can’t say.

Psychologies: Have your ideas about flow changed over the past decades?

Mihai Chiksentmihai: The ideas of the flow have already taken on a life separate from me, but I continue to follow what is happening in this area. Recently it turned out that the point of balance between skills and efforts, when we are maximally involved and immersed in what we are doing, is actually shifted towards complexity, towards challenge. I think this is an important find.

We prefer to be in a situation where we have to exert ourselves a little more than we can in order to acquire the skills necessary to solve a problem. Of course, at work, we would rather be in the control zone — it’s calmer this way — but in sports, for example, our nature strives to overcome difficulties, to surpass ourselves. This is perhaps the key to many of the problems of our adult life. We all the time need to have new challenges, new complex tasks.

Sports are conducive to flow. How else can you achieve this state?

It may seem strange, but work, which we used to consider a difficult but necessary duty, is largely organized according to the same laws as the game. There is a goal, there are deadlines, and there is a need to show your best side. In such conditions, the state of flow is very achievable. But, for example, in family life it is much more difficult to achieve it. There is too much of everything, everything is too chaotic, tasks creep one on top of the other, there are no clear deadlines and clear goals.

I am often asked: “What should I do? I want to experience flow more often, but I feel ashamed to take time for myself because there are so many important things to do.” Women usually talk about it. They have more worries: family, children, home, and work.

In such a situation, the likelihood of a conflict of interest is, of course, higher. If the state of flow, for example, brings knitting, then sitting down to knitting, when children walk on their heads, the apartment is not cleaned, dinner is not prepared, bills are not paid, the woman, of course, upsets the balance between the various aspects of life.

Our task is to learn to be happy by doing what is not included in the range of our natural needs, by creating something beyond what nature has given us. Plato said two thousand years ago that the main thing is to teach young people to be happy by doing what is needed. Yes, it is difficult to be happy in a family, doing your duty or doing your job. But if we are unhappy in this, then we will not be happy at all. So, we must learn to enjoy this pleasure, to understand how to do it.

Have you been able to teach this to your children?

First you need to captivate them, arouse interest, show that efforts can bring joy. My wife and I have two sons. When they were little, we often went to the zoo. And every time the children had a task: to find the beast with the biggest horns, for example. Or with the longest tail. This game was enough for a couple of years of exciting family weekends.

But then the children grew up — and said that they felt sorry for the animals in the cages. The game is over, I had to invent something new. When we went on long trips by car, the children acted as navigators. We made a map of the route in advance, found out what interesting places or buildings can be seen along the way. Naturally, this required effort and preparation from them. But they were happy, they really liked it!

And what is also very important — they felt their involvement in the life of the family, their responsibility for preparing a common trip. And this, perhaps, is the main thing that modern children lack for happiness. The feeling of an important role in life is what children miss when everything comes to them packaged and ready to eat.

Let’s get back to the flow. Is this state always positive?

It is worth distinguishing a flow from states, which may be very similar to it, but are not. Take football. When the boys chase the ball for hours in the yard, not noticing the broken knees and thirst, this, of course, is a stream. But the higher the level of the game, the less likely it is to achieve it. Considerations of money, prestige, fear of a mistake that will cost dearly appear — and the flow leaves. What remains is its imitation. Do you know how it ends?

It’s the same with musicians. At one time, the US Symphony Orchestra Association invited me to find out why many musicians are real masters! — over time, they not only do not improve, but they begin to play even worse. And you know what I found out? That these musicians easily achieve a state of flow—for example, when they gather with friends for an impromptu jazz jam session in the evening.

This does not mean that they love jazz and do not like Bach or Beethoven, no, no. They love the classics. What they don’t like is the lack of choice. When a conductor demands to play this way and not otherwise, when the repertoire, the schedule of performances and rehearsals are scheduled for a year in advance, freedom is gone. And with it, the opportunity to dissolve in what we do.

If our work is tightly controlled, if there are standards that must always be met, even activities that can and should bring a state of flow become forced work.

And yet, if we are talking about a true, real flow: is it always positive?

No. For example, you yourself probably know how many people who participated in hostilities cannot find themselves when returning from the army. In battle, they experienced a state of flux — this often happens. And they cannot repeat it in civilian life. Yes, these people may have fought for the highest ideals and defended their homeland, but that doesn’t change the fact that they survived the flow state by shooting other people.

When one is unable to achieve flow in daily life, it is very dangerous. He may start looking for other ways. And to find your flow in robbery or murder — unfortunately, this is possible. Children are born with a biological need to have fun.

And they test it not only from reading poetry, but also from a fight in the yard too. It is very important to teach them to enjoy, if you want to achieve flow, in actions that are useful, and not dangerous for them and for others.

Perhaps, for me personally, this is the main task. Understand how you can bring more flow into your schooling and family life.

You, having learned so much about happiness and ways to achieve flow, can you call yourself a happy person?

I think for the most part yes. Although I can say for sure that the state of flow in my life was much greater until the moment I began to study it. I receive calls and messages from women who are desperate to overcome their children’s drug addiction. Children ask me whether it is possible to overcome Alzheimer’s disease in their parents … Many people turn to me with questions that are beyond my competence. I just don’t know what to say to them, but I feel obligated to say at least something. I belong less and less to myself. But on the other hand, this is also evidence that someone needs my ideas. All in all, I’m probably happy.

Through the efforts of positive psychologists, happiness has turned from an abstract ideal into an object of study. Dozens of books are published on how to achieve it. Are they really helpful?

I understand your skepticism. There are even more books on how to lose weight in America, and you yourself know the results … But the point here is not in the books, but in ourselves. We must try to change ourselves, we must form new habits and break old ones, we must act. Otherwise, nothing will come of it.

It’s very simple: take the best cookbook and read it at least a dozen times. And what, do you have French rooster in wine or Russian beef stroganoff on your table? No, of course not — until you cook them!

And you have to start with the basics: choose products, cut meat or poultry, peel vegetables. Information must be translated into action. Knowing what to do is one thing, but being able to do it is quite another. And some of us may lack dexterity, coordination of movements, and who knows what else.

Does this mean that some of us will never be able to become happy people, will never learn this?

Achieving happiness is a matter of action. My research, for example, has shown that people who have experienced childhood abuse or lack of love may find it harder to achieve a state of flow. However, that doesn’t mean you shouldn’t try.

I was 10 years old when the Second World War ended, and I saw how few people were able to psychologically survive the losses, chaos, how vulnerable they were in the face of external forces. But today there are extremely interesting works in which psychologists interviewed those who lost their sight or were paralyzed. And imagine, these people very often said that they feel happy.

It sounds incredible, but I have a simple explanation. Having lost sight or the ability to walk, a person is forced to learn to live again, to look for completely new strategies and behaviors. Everything has to be rediscovered. And in the process of this discovery, skills and habits are often formed that allow you to achieve happiness.

Someone might say that you cannot compare the happiness of a blind and a sighted person. Of course, you can’t, but happiness cannot be compared at all. It has its own for everyone, and if a person, having lost his sight, can feel happy, then it means that it is so. Of course, it does not follow from this that in order to achieve happiness, we all have to go blind. It follows from this only that we are able to develop the necessary models of behavior. And that means learning to be happy.