What personal problems can be solved by studying the lives, and why should God not be brought to the stage? A conversation with Leonid Ogorodnov, the author of the agiodrama methodology, which turns 10 this year.
Psychologies: «Agio» is Greek for «holy», but what is hagiodrama?
Leonid Ogorodnov: When this technique was born, we staged the lives of saints by means of psychodrama, that is, dramatic improvisation on a given plot. Now I would define hagiodrama more broadly: it is a psychodramatic work with Sacred Tradition.
In addition to the lives, this includes the staging of icons, texts of the holy fathers, church music, and architecture. For example, my student, psychologist Yulia Trukhanova, put the interior of the temple.
Putting the interior — is it possible?
It is possible to put everything that can be considered as a text in the broadest sense, that is, as an organized system of signs. In psychodrama, any object can find its voice, show character.
For example, in the production of «Temple» there were roles: the porch, the temple, the iconostasis, the chandelier, the porch, the steps to the temple. The participant, who chose the role of “Steps to the Temple”, experienced an insight: she realized that this is not just a staircase, these steps are guides from everyday life to the world of the sacred.
Participants of productions — who are they?
Such a question involves the development of training, when the target audience is determined and a product is created for it. But I didn’t do anything. I got into hagiodrama because it was interesting to me.
So I put up an ad, and I also called my friends and said: “Come, you only need to pay for the room, let’s play and see what happens.” And those who were also interested in it came, there were quite a lot of them. After all, there are freaks who are interested in icons or Byzantine holy fools of the XNUMXth century. It was the same with hagiodrama.
Agiodrama — therapeutic or educational technique?
Not only therapeutic, but also educational: the participants not only understand, but gain personal experience about what holiness is, who are the apostles, martyrs, saints and other saints.
With regard to psychotherapy, with the help of hagiodrama one can solve psychological problems, but the method of solving it differs from that adopted in classical psychodrama: in comparison with it, hagiodrama is, of course, redundant.
Agiodrama allows you to experience turning to God, go beyond your own «I», become more than your «I»
What is the point of introducing saints into the staging, if you can just put mom and dad? It is no secret that most of our problems are related to parent-child relationships. The solution to such problems lies in the field of our «I».
Agiodrama is a systematic work with transcendental, in this case, religious, spiritual roles. «Transcendent» means «crossing the border». Of course, the boundary between man and God can only be crossed with the help of God, since it is established by Him.
But, for example, prayer is an address to God, and “prayer” is a transcendental role. Agiodrama allows you to experience this conversion, to go — or at least try — beyond the limits of your own «I», to become more than your «I».
Apparently, such a goal is set for themselves mainly by believers?
Yes, primarily believers, but not only. Still «sympathetic», interested. But the work is built differently. In many cases, hagiodramatic work with believers can be called extensive preparation for Repentance.
Believers have, for example, doubts or anger, grumbling against God. This prevents them from praying, asking God for something: how to make a request to someone I’m angry with? This is a case where two roles stick together: the transcendental role of the one who prays and the psychological role of the angry one. And then the goal of hagiodrama is to separate these roles.
Why is it useful to separate roles?
Because when we do not share different roles, then confusion arises inside us, or, in Jung’s words, a «complex», that is, a tangle of multidirectional spiritual tendencies. The one with whom this happens is not aware of this confusion, but experiences it — and this experience is sharply negative. And to act from this position is generally impossible.
Often the image of God is a hodgepodge of fears and hopes collected from relatives and friends.
If an effort of will brings us a one-time victory, then the “complex” returns and becomes even more painful. But if we separate the roles and hear their voices, then we can understand each of them and, perhaps, agree with them. In classical psychodrama, such a goal is also set.
How is this work going?
Once we staged the life of the Great Martyr Eustathius Placis, to whom Christ appeared in the form of a Deer. The client in the role of Eustathius, seeing the Deer, suddenly experienced the strongest anxiety.
I began to ask, and it turned out that she associated the Deer with her grandmother: she was an imperious woman, her demands often contradicted each other, and it was difficult for the girl to cope with this. After that, we stopped the actual hagiodramatic action and moved on to classical psychodrama on family themes.
Having dealt with the relationship between grandmother and granddaughter (psychological roles), we returned to life, to Eustathius and Deer (transcendental roles). And then the client from the role of a saint was able to turn to the Deer with love, without fear and anxiety. Thus, we divorced the roles, gave God — Bogovo, and grandmother — grandmother’s.
And what problems do unbelievers solve?
Example: A contestant is called for the role of a humble saint, but the role does not work out. Why? She is hindered by pride, which she did not even suspect. The result of the work in this case may not be a solution to the problem, but, on the contrary, its formulation.
A very important topic for both believers and non-believers is the removal of projections from God. Everyone who is at least a little familiar with psychology knows that a husband or wife often distorts the image of a partner, transferring the features of a mother or father to him.
Something similar happens with the image of God — it is often a hodgepodge of fears and hopes collected from all relatives and friends. In hagiodrama we can remove these projections, and then the possibility of communication both with God and with people is restored.
How did you come to hagiodrama? And why did they leave psychodrama?
I didn’t go anywhere: I lead psychodrama groups, teach and work individually with the psychodrama method. But everyone in their profession is looking for a «chip», so I started looking. And from what I knew and saw, I liked mythodrama the most.
Moreover, it was cycles that interested me, and not individual myths, and it is desirable that such a cycle ends with the end of the world: the birth of the universe, the adventures of the gods, rocking the unstable balance of the world, and it had to end with something.
If we separate the roles and hear their voices, we can understand each of them and, perhaps, agree with them
It turned out that there are very few such mythological systems. I started with Scandinavian mythology, then switched to the Judeo-Christian «myth», set up a cycle according to the Old Testament. Then I thought about the New Testament. But I believed that God should not be brought on stage in order not to provoke projections on Him, not to attribute our human feelings and motivations to Him.
And in the New Testament, Christ acts everywhere, in which the divine coexists with human nature. And I thought: God can not be put — but you can put people who are closest to Him. And these are the saints. When I looked at the lives of «mythological» eyes, I was amazed at their depth, beauty and variety of meanings.
Has hagiodrama changed anything in your life?
Yes. I cannot say that I have become a church member: I am not a member of any parish and do not actively participate in church life, but I confess and take communion at least four times a year. Feeling that I do not always have enough knowledge to keep the Orthodox context of life, I went to study theology at St. Tikhon Orthodox Humanitarian University.
And from a professional point of view, this is the path of self-realization: systematic work with transcendental roles. This is very inspiring. I tried to introduce transcendental roles in non-religious psychodrama, but it did not hook me.
I’m interested in saints. I never know what will happen to this saint in the production, what emotional reactions and meanings the performer of this role will discover. There has not yet been a case where I have not learned something new for myself.