She gave birth to eight children and felt like a single mother when her husband struggled with communism for years. Why was she the happiest in the first 11 years of her marriage? Did Lech Wałęsa change babies’ diapers? And she let her sons cry? What does he think about abortion? Would she forgive her husband for treason? How did she manage eight children without 500+? And would she sacrifice everything for the family one more time? – Danuta Wałęsa in an interview with Agnieszka Sztyler-Turovsky about motherhood.
“Polish Mother” does it sound proud or pathetic?
Danuta Wałęsa: Doesn’t sound proud. Not any more.
Sacrificing yourself to your family, is this a sucker today to apologize?
If a woman or a man make sacrifices against themselves out of necessity, they will be unhappy. And Polish women are so nature that they devote themselves a lot. This is probably not good. Because are women happy with it?
Certainly not all …
Exactly. I have four daughters, each one is different. Wiktoria has no children, lives in Warsaw, and is the type of a constantly searching woman. Brygidka has a husband, but she does not want children, says that without children they are fine … And the other two daughters already have children. Anna three. She is a typical “house hen”. When I look at her, I see myself from years ago.
A mother sacrificing herself for the family?
Yes. Although I don’t think I was such a possessive mother. Ania spends all the time with her children – Julka, Mikołaj and the youngest – eight-month-old Leon. She will not leave a child with anyone even for a moment. And I would like to leave it, as if I had someone with whom (laughs). On the other hand, about Magda, my eldest daughter, it is difficult to say that she is a “Polish mother”. Anyway, I do not like this term, so if a woman has one child and does not sacrifice all herself for the family, she is not a Polish mother? So Magda is just a mother. Modern. The former ballerina left her husband, she brings up her son herself to become an independent boy who knows how to make dinner for himself. And she must have time to take care of herself, have a social life, go to a concert. I even envy my daughter a little. I didn’t have that myself.
WITHOUT WOMEN, THE COMMUNIONS WILL NOT BE DEFECTED
You had eight children and a husband who fought communism, so he disappeared from home, sometimes for a long time while he was interned. It is not surprising that you did not have time for friends and concerts … Without women, men would have the strength to overthrow the communist regime?
They wouldn’t! But did they know it, feel it? When martial law ended, neither of them got up and said, “We thank the women for giving us support, for taking care of our families.” We – women have been underestimated for a long time, so now we raise our heads! (laughter). Women are rebelling, and they should rebel even more. And take up politics, because men today don’t want that anymore. I remember the time when during the martial law they shut down these most brave men and everything hung on us – women. We were left alone with the children, danger lurked every time we went out to the street. And they were isolated, they lived there like donuts in butter, and they still had a grudge against us. They wrote in letters: “You rebel there, do something to let us out of here!”
Your husband also wrote to you like that ?!
Not. The husband was then such a “psychological force”. Whenever something happened, he always gave me support. Even when they closed him, he said, “It’ll be fine. Do not worry!”. They were taking him out of the house and I didn’t know if they locked him for five or 24 hours. I didn’t care.
Didn’t you care ?! After all, he might not have come back.
I knew he was coming back. Today I sometimes wonder myself how I managed to endure it all mentally.
Have you never been depressed?
No, but I had moments of breakdown … Such that I thought that I would not be able to do it …
Did you manage without therapy and psychotropics?
I didn’t have time for such things. Then I was going to the sea and looking at the waves and calming down … And going home to look after the children. I did not have any help, because in Gdańsk I did not have a close family. Only in 1980 was my cousin Mariola, as close to me as my sister. She helped me a lot then.
Did you miss postnatal depression eight times too?
I haven’t had postpartum depression either once. I think it’s a matter of how I was brought up. My parents did not pamper me. I grew up in the countryside, in difficult conditions. I have learned that in life I have to deal with everything on my own. Mine also had a difficult childhood, so he believes that he has to give his children everything that he did not have and he wants to help them all the time.
And what is the effect?
Such that Jarek had the best school of life. Maybe that’s why he had the strength to become a politician. He went to the States in high school because he wanted to take the American high school diploma and study there. Of course, he had a friendly family there, but he lived in a dormitory for three years. He had to cope with himself abroad.
AND THE SENSITIVITY, AND THE STRENGTH
Did you favor any of the children?
I don’t think so, but the kids said I favored Jarek. And I believe that every child is different, so each child has to be treated a little differently. Jarek always said: “Mum, you have to do everything to make you happy”, “Mum, take care of yourself!” Boys do.
Did you raise boys differently than your daughters?
No, although I raised my sons differently than men in my generation and my husband’s. I believe that both daughters and sons should be hugged and pampered, but that a child should experience not only tenderness, but also severity. I believe that stress toughens a child.
Many mothers will hate you for making such theories.
Children cannot be brought up stress-free. There must be moderation. The doggie can be petted to death and the child may become neurotic. Every child is different, every person is different. Today I try to understand and accept that not everyone is like me, that someone, for example, is phlegmatic …
WAŁĘSIE IT IS EASIER TO DEMONSTRATE EMOTION AT “GOD’S SOMETHING POLAND”
Because you are emotional, aren’t you?
Very! Too much, I would even like to be a little dull. Now I am renovating my house and when I see that the workers from the morning cannot move around, they only walk around the garden, I raise my voice. I yell at them.
You shouted at them, you shouted at the secrets who were coming your way. You also reportedly shouted at the security officers who searched your home. Did you also shout at the children?
I also screamed at the children. My emotions are so swinging, what is on my heart, I say it right away. And yet I was in such a situation that I had eight children and I had to control them all.
Did you beat the children?
Sometimes I just spanked.
And the husband?
Not. He did not hit the children, but he also did not show much affection. Even today, when our daughters, already grown up, visit us and hug, I can see that my husband goes numb. Maybe it is easier for him to show emotion when he hears “God’s something about Poland” than when he hugs children? I can see that he is moved, but ashamed of it.
Does he think that men are not appropriate?
Yes. But I believe that it falls out. Just like me – sometimes a woman had to act militarily. When my husband was interned, I gave my children orders: “Do it! Go here! ”. I commanded by screaming.
Did they listen?
Differently. Apparently so, at first. And when I turned around and I didn’t see, they did their job. How are children. Every child is different.
Which is what?
I have already talked about the little daughters…. Przemek was an artist! He was because, unfortunately, he is dead. He had artistic abilities, and if something broke in the house, he was able to glue even delicate porcelain. He was also musical. Well, he was not lucky. Already in childhood, when the boys had a fight in the yard, it was immediately known to Przemek that he accused him, that he beat someone up. Once, when he was 12, a woman came to our house, holding her son’s hand, and said that Przemek had beaten him a moment ago. “What are you saying ?!” – I shouted, because Przemek was at home. This kid made the whole story up!
Maybe being beaten up by Wałęsa’s son was something!
Well, one of the grandchildren complained that he had problems with the surname of Wałęsa. I told him, “Change that! No problem”.
Changed?
Not! Coming back to Przemek, unfortunately, he also had addictions. Maybe he inherited from his ancestors? There is a legend in my husband’s family that there were gamblers in the Wałęsa family. I used to think that everyone is responsible for their own lives and you can’t blame your grandparents. And now I think that if you inherit certain inclinations, you can try to fight them, but some will be toned down, and others will intensify …
Sławek is a conciliatory guy. And you can see everything after it. When he was 15-16 years old and armed something, I could read it on his face immediately. He has it after his father. After my husband also passed, I knew immediately that something was wrong. He had such a sour expression on his face. Now he does not show emotions anymore …
I’ve already talked a little about Jarek. He is strong, determined – after his father. And he is also sensitive. As a result, he had a reputation as a mommy in the family. He would come to cuddle with me when I was thirteen. Today he says he had to fight for it.
He fought for tenderness?
Yes. He needed affection, so he demanded it. I am sad that he had to fight for it. In the past, sons were told: “you are a man, not a woman and you must not cry!”. I was brought up in such a conservative family – the man did not cry. The man had to be a powerhouse.
Bogdan, the eldest, is probably most attracted to me – he visits me every week, if I need help with something, he is always attracted to him. And the character is mixed up. A bit from Wałęsa and a bit from Gołosiów.
What are the Wałęsas, and what are the Gołosias?
The husband’s family thinks more about themselves, has a stronger ego, they are interested in their own ego. And those stories with gambling … With them my family seems so “asexual”.
I don’t think so, madam!
There are exceptions! (laughs) My daughter Wiktoria says: “Mom, you are from another planet!” And she’s probably right. Because we were nine siblings, and I was the only one who moved out of the family home. I was only 10-12 years old and I already knew that I would go out into the world. I have a gypsy nature. I think Bridget is the most like me in character of all my children. She is drawn to go abroad, her husband is an IT specialist, so he can work from anywhere in the world. Brigitte is emotional when something does not suit her, she immediately says it, then she regrets it. He cares about everything, wants to make everyone happy, just like me. However, although she is married, she has no children. Don’t want. He says: “You will not wait for mom!”
IT’S NOT MOTHERS, IT’S A LIVING DOG
Seeing how much it cost you to raise eight children, was she discouraged from motherhood?
I hope not and that it will mature yet. Magda wanted to have a lot of children, but that’s how it turned out, she has one. I believe that the least you should have three children.
Three?!
Yes. For God, for people and for myself. I do not understand a woman who selfishly says “I want a child and now”. And immediately after giving birth, he hires a babysitter or puts the child in a nursery. This is not a mother, she is only a life giver.
A bit like a surrogate?
Yes. How else to call a woman who has only one hour a day for a child because she prefers to devote all her time to work to earn even more money, because she is focused only on having?
It happens that there is simply no way out. She would rather be with the baby, but has to work hard to support it. Because, for example, she is a single mother. In Poland, the collection of child support payments is the worst in Europe.
And I hear the government will pursue alimonists and put you in jail. And over there, a man who doesn’t pay alimony will sit and live at the expense of all of us. Instead of going to jail, he should be sent to work. Forced.
Maybe there is no job for them?
Is! For me, there is no excuse that there is no job. Let alimonists work in agriculture, picking fruit and vegetables, planting trees in the forest, cleaning the streets. There is something to do. Only many do not want to, because there are 500+.
Well, how did you manage without 500+?
Until ’80, my husband worked in a shipyard. And then in three plants, because they dismissed him from all of them. When free trade unions came into being, they helped a little. And that my husband was an electrician and he earned extra money by repairing cars. There were no luxuries, but we were fine, we were still happy then.
AUGUST ’80. THE BOMB FALLED ON MY HOUSE
You said “we were” …
Because I was the happiest in my life during the first 11 years of my marriage. And in 80 it all fell apart. I felt as if someone had dropped a bomb on my house and it collapsed and scattered in all directions. The husband is gone.
He went to politics?
Yes. After the strike, we moved from a tiny apartment to a large one, in a block of flats in Zaspa. Trade unionists and journalists started to stay with us – crowds of people were moving through the house. There was also an office in the house, secretaries took turns working there.
Did you live like “Big Brother”?
Yes. And my children lived in all of this. Today I admire them for what they are, even though they lived under great stress throughout their childhood. They could have ended up worse.
And when years ago the media wrote about the pranks of your children, about their divorces, did you sometimes blame yourself for having made some educational mistake?
Not. “Marriage is a sacred thing,” I said, but today I think that a person should be happy. My daughter Marysia lives with a man without marriage. In the past, I would have really wanted them to get married, and today I do not insist. People get married rashly and then get divorced. I think marriage must be fought for, but not at any cost. If the husband does not respect the woman, he is an alcoholic, he cheats, then I would absolutely allow divorce.
You have always declared yourself to be a very religious, practicing Catholic, and the church does not allow divorce …
There are men in the church. Anyway, for God’s sake, how can you say: “he beats you, but you must be with him, because you have a church wedding” … After all, God created man to be happy!
When I did not have children yet, I thought that every failure of a child was a testimony to the mother. After all, it is said: “Your mother brought you up badly!” Today I think differently, because I know how much effort must be put into education. I tried as best I could, and when there was a problem, e.g. I was worried if any of the children had dysgraphia, I went to a psychologist. It’s just that I didn’t have as much time for them as each of them would need. My children were hiding on their own a little. As a mother, I did not give 100 percent of the advice …
And which mother can handle even one child one hundred percent? What about eight.
Yeah. The husband, absorbed in politics, disappeared from home. I felt that my husband left me, that I was left alone. I was through it a lot, I couldn’t cope. I remember a day when our daughter Ania was only one month old and there was a crowd of people at our house from 7 am. One day I got so upset that I started screaming at them terribly.
What were you screaming?
That I am fed up with not coming here.
They left?
Everyone left. My husband was with them, but when he came back, he hung a note on the door that read: “Typhus. No admission. And the visits of strangers ended. There were no journalists at home anymore, no trade unionists. Only I had to fight it myself. Nobody said then, “Let these people get out of here. You have to take care of Danka ”. And then I really needed someone to take care of me. I wanted my husband to ask, “How are you? Don’t you need something? ”
The husband cheated on you with politics. Previously, he was affectionate, hugging the Lady and asking: “How are you feeling, darling?”
Hugging must have been if we have children! (laughs) I’m joking, because I am not talking about such “hugs”. My husband was returning from work, we were going for a walk with the children. Then there were five of them, because Magda was just born. People were watching us when they saw such a crowd. We also often went on weekends together. We were together and we were for each other.
The husband helped with the children?
Yes, until the age of 80 he helped with children.
Did Lech Wałęsa change diapers?
He changed diapers. In addition, tetras! You had to cook them. Those were the days of Frania’s washing machine. The husband also bathed the children. As long as we lived alone, because politics had not yet entered our lives, then yes. Later, when my husband became president, we left together again. Only that wasn’t it anymore. These were foreign business delegations, all the time traveling, I was only an addition there, a woman who followed my husband half a step.
FOR YOU, FOR YOURSELF AND ALL WOMEN
Years later, you lost it. She wrote a book and you stepped out of your husband’s shadow.
I lived in lethargy for a long time and slowly woke up (laughs). But seriously: I was just doing my part. During martial law, when my husband was interned, I met journalists, although Wiktoria was tiny then and sometimes I could see stars in my eyes with fatigue. I didn’t take it as a sacrifice. My husband also sacrificed himself, his family and his health – there had to be someone who would bear it all, pull it all …
And when your husband was interned, you received the Nobel Prize for him …
I said then that I was going to represent Polish women. Some people held it against me.
Who?
Activists from Solidarity. They probably thought that I only represented my husband and guys. And at that time, the following feeling began to arise in me: “Now I, a woman, have something to do! You – man did your job. Now I have my time and my role to play. You make me go out into the world, then I go, of course. But I’m not just doing it for you. I also do it for myself and for all women. ” Then I decided to represent Polish women.
Did you become a feminist from a Polish mother?
I do not like this term, although maybe I will get used to it …
You don’t like it because a feminist is stereotypically perceived as a woman who doesn’t like men?
Yes. And the world needs both a woman and a man. We complement each other. A woman cannot be pigeonholed that she has to be, for example, only a mother. A woman has the right to take what she wants from life. If, for example, both her and her husband want to fulfill themselves professionally, and they can afford a babysitter, why not.
Did you tell your daughter about this?
She wouldn’t have listened anyway (laughs). Balance is important, but I do not mean parity. Not all women are fit for politics, and not all men are either, but I mean mutual respect – people are equal. Women have the right to be politicians, engineers, and develop in any field. And no one has the right to say that a woman has to serve her husband in something, for example. Let the husband serve her and she serve him, but without the feeling that someone is forcing something on someone. The only effect of gender is that, for example, a woman gives birth to a child, not a man. And on that point, I don’t like the attitude of some women – such as, “I’m the one who decides for myself!”
Are you talking about abortion on request?
Yes. Not every woman needs to have a child. “You do not want children, then do not have sex with a man. Normal business, ”I say. I heard Konstanty Radziwiłł, the minister of health, saying that if his daughter were raped and she became pregnant, he would do anything to give birth to her, I was shocked. Because if she said, “They raped me, but I accept it. And I will give birth to this child, ”I would respect that, but when a father tells his daughter that he has to give birth to a child conceived of rape, I consider it immoral. It’s like a father killing his own daughter. I am against abortion, but I believe that the decision about it is a matter of the woman’s conscience.
What do you think about the “day after” pill?
I am for its availability. I had some doubts and talked about them with my youngest daughter. She explained to me that this pill prevents fertilization, so using it is not a murder. Because even if the ignition did occur, a large dose of progesterone in a tablet would allow the embryo to implant more firmly.
There are no taboos with your daughters?
We talk about everything with the youngest Brygidka. Also on male and female subjects.
MU’S EGO KIPI, HARD TO LIVE WITH HIM
And what does the Lady say to her about men?
We were a bit at war for a while, because she is a radical feminist. He has a lot to criticize for men, he believes that they do not respect women. She also had many reservations about my relationship with her husband, because she herself has a very partner marriage. They got along with her husband.
Did she urge you to divorce or rebel?
I am not prone to rebellion there. I am responsible for my own decisions. I also do not impose anything on my children.
Are you a little jealous of the marriage partner Brigitte?
Not! I don’t envy anyone anything. I had the life I chose. My husband cheated on me with politics, but I forgave him.
And would you forgive your husband for another betrayal?
With woman? Yes, but after the betrayal, I wouldn’t be with him anymore. I could live with him under the same roof, but only as a sister with my brother. Although I have a friend whom my husband cheated on for two years. He’s back. She took him in, they are together.
But probably out of reason, not love?
I think it is common sense. This is how many married couples my age live. Although there are also happy, cool married couples with 50 years of experience.
What does it depend on that some will succeed and not others?
A lot depends on the man.
Dlaczego?
Because if a man has an ego so exuberant that he is seething, and many have such, it is very difficult to live with such a man.
Your husband has finally read your book? Because he once boasted in the media that no.
I don’t know if he has already read it. He even joked that he was taking a “housewife” for his wife, not a writer. But it doesn’t offend me. I agreed to such a life and I have no regrets. Indeed, I did not work professionally, because I took care of children, but if I analyze the work I did at home, I can say that she had twenty professions!
Husband appreciates it?
The husband is a follower of patriarchy.
And it hasn’t changed after you wrote your book?
He has changed, but for the worse! He has never done anything at home and is still doing nothing. Only he says now that he is already an elderly gentleman and has no strength. And it’s time to die. He is mentally tired. Even when he is walking around the house, he should do it slowly, with such a heavy step. Then I even push him sometimes. But I do not complain. I feel good as it is.
You wrote in the book that you wait until your husband “returns” home. He’s back?
Not. Did not come back. And I don’t want him back anymore. I just want him to be happy, although I don’t know what would make him happy today …
“There are no houses without fragments,” says the proverb. Over the years my husband got used to the fact that I take care of everything at home, so now he doesn’t do anything either, but he says that he just doesn’t want to interfere with me, so I do everything myself. I even mow the grass myself.
Oh, that a husband could already do as a follower of patriarchy! Mowing grass is theoretically a male occupation.
Apparently my husband’s definition of patriarchy doesn’t include mowing the lawn! (laughter)