Charlotte Gainsbourg: «I don’t know what shame is»

She does not like herself on the screen, but starred in three dozen films; does not like her voice, but has recorded three albums; considers himself lazy, but works incessantly. A woman who cheats on herself in order to change herself.

No matter how much everyone envies the thin, thinness is not such a rare case. It is rare to meet a fragile, thin person, as if not only externally, but also internally — vulnerable, whom one wants to embrace and protect. It was such a woman who opened the door of an apartment on the left bank of the Seine for me. Refined, with a nervous face, the current calmness of which seems especially valuable, with helplessly narrow wrists, angular teenage gestures. A woman-boy, a teenage woman, as if something prevented her from growing up, spreading out, swearing …

Charlotte Gainsbourg lives in the area of ​​her childhood — not far from her father’s house on Rue Verneuil, where the black walls are the refuge of an irreconcilable modernist, antique chaise longues with terrifying griffins, a giant library of an intellectual … and a photo of her, 14, on her father’s piano. She and the house itself are photographs of children, already her own. The apartment has a somewhat careless atmosphere for a person who does not like too much, but he absolutely needs all this mass of different things and little things … The main decoration of the apartment is the apartment itself, in which there are high ceilings, high double doors, bay windows in the entire wall. Here is the realm of daylight and intelligibility of purpose — a bunch of children’s shoes are piled in the hallway (I even think for a minute: how can its owners not leave in different shoes?), The laptop is clearly always on, the furniture is scattered, because it is strictly functional, and an antique masterpiece — the secretary is next to an aggressive huge yellow armchair from America of the 60s.

Charlotte invites me to sit on the sofa, but she herself sits down in an armchair. At the same time, her crown is much lower than the top of the back, and thin arms on the armrests do not take up any space. In this colossus for sitting, she becomes even more vulnerable …

Having made a stellar career without exaggeration, becoming a wife and mother, Charlotte Gainsbourg seems to carry something childish in herself. She is one of those people whose rich present — filming a movie, recording solo albums, three children, charitable campaigns — does not obscure the past. Even receiving the Cannes prize as the best actress, in her short response, she made it clear that she is aware of herself not only as a mother. She is still a daughter. In her case, you can’t escape the past. Yes, she doesn’t want to.

Psychologies: It so happened that the world knows you not only as an outstanding actress. You are the daughter of Serge Gainsbourg, who — so they say — made a show of his life. It turns out that you have always been under the crossfire of extreme publicity, since childhood. And when the world saw your father and your music video «Lemon Incest» and Gainsbourg’s film «Charlotte Forever», this publicity became very ambiguous. Did it interfere with you and in general — how do you feel about such an assessment of your fame?

Charlotte Gensburg: You know, when the movie «Charlotte Forever» came out and this video, I was already in a private school in Switzerland. So all the disputes about admissibility-inadmissibility, ethics and «debauchery» turned out to be completely beyond me — in Swiss private schools there is a very strict discipline, students were protected from extraneous information, and the Internet, of course, did not exist then. But if I knew then about the unfolding discussion, I would be terribly surprised. Yes, in that video, my father and I really were in bed, but the lyrics were so tender, so innocent, in it — like in the movie — it was about the sublime — yes, yes! love between father and daughter. It is about the love that we felt for each other … But can feelings be ashamed? After all, love is a good impulse to another. Can it be shameful?

Do you share your feelings easily?

Sh. G .: You know, I’m a shy person by nature. But for me there is only shyness, a natural property. Shame is a consequence of something social. And apparently, I got it from my parents. They deliberately led an emphatically public life that denies shame. They insisted that as long as it is not about meanness, about a crime against a person, there is no shame. I remember how they returned home at 7 in the morning, when Kate, my older sister by mother, and I got up for school, and paparazzi flickered around our house … But at the same time they were people of firm rules, we had a very strict code of conduct. Say, at the table… Elbows on the tablecloth? Unacceptable! They strove for a clear, intelligible, honest relationship. Let’s say I don’t speak English, my mother’s native language, like my own, but Kate speaks French like a Frenchwoman. Do you know why? Because my father did not know English, and my mother categorically did not want to create a secret language for us — secret from him. At home we spoke only French. I had a very happy childhood precisely because of our mutual openness, because of the lack of secrets from each other. Of course, my father really drank terribly sometimes, then my parents divorced, and it was not easy … I’m used to being shy by nature, but actually there is nothing to be ashamed of. My father was a very shy person himself, and he dealt with it…well, very radically. Almost exhibitionistic. Complete self-disclosure. It was precisely his method of overcoming his own shyness. Father was perceived as a provocateur, but he was not. He was really a free artist, which sometimes shocked. For example, that mise-en-scene, when we are lying in bed with him, of course, there was a certain provocation in it. But it was so natural for me — my father always seemed to test the limits of the possible, the limits of the patience of the world, but most importantly, the limits of his own courage, the limits of what he himself is capable of. And in that, I think I’m like him.

Is the film Antichrist that made you a famous actress a test of your own courage?

Sh. G .: «Antichrist» is therapy and temptation at the same time. A few months before von Trier’s proposal, I suffered an injury — I hit my head while water skiing. And two weeks later it turned out that I had intracranial bleeding, I needed to urgently have an operation, I was doing well, I was not afraid of anything, the operation was successful … And then I suddenly realized how fragile everything was, that I could die, the children would be left orphans … And from a stubborn, actually rather brave person, she turned into some kind of nurse. Somehow weakened. I could not make a single decision, I was afraid for the children, I was afraid of everything … And then — «Antichrist». I made up my mind, and he saved me from weakness. Just because I started working on something that is more important than me. And what no one expected from me. And I generally strive to go where I am not expected — so as not to become a slave to expectations. I jumped at the opportunity to do How to Get Married and Stay Single in the same way — I rarely get roles in comedies. But most importantly, I felt that this film, Antichrist, could be important for people. Excuse the direct utilitarianism, of course, this is not how art should be viewed, but it seemed to me that it could be important for those who have lost the most precious ones …

Why is it a temptation?

Sh. G .: Well, simply — the actors do not refuse the offers of such directors as Lars von Trier. I knew what I would have to do—including myself—to work with him. I knew what frankness of sexual, more precisely, physiological-carnal scenes, he wanted to achieve. In general, I knew about his requirements regarding acting frankness — an actor for von Trier must forget about himself, about his complexes, about his image, pride. He must extract from himself and present … a dark abyss. And I… I know about my dark abyss. I immersed myself in it. And she experienced … well, something close to the feelings of the woman she played in Antichrist. When grief, the horror of loss, imperceptibly for you, turns into sheer horror and you think that everything, everything must be destroyed, because there is an evil chaos of ruins around, and it must be destroyed …

• Accept what we cannot change

Are you talking about what you went through when your father died?

Sh. G .: It’s strange to me that I started talking about this … Yes. I didn’t talk about my father’s death for many years. I was 19 when he passed away. He died suddenly, overnight. And I probably still haven’t gotten over that shock. Not resigned to the fact that he is not. I didn’t even take any action on his house on Rue Verneuil. For some time I thought that it was necessary to give it the status of the Gainsbourg Museum, I even somehow talked about this with the Paris City Hall … But I’m not sure. Everything is exactly the same as it was on the day of his death. Black walls. Not a single mirror — he did not like his reflections, he said, they remind him of his «resemblance to a reptile.» I can’t change anything there. I go there very rarely — it hurts too much … Although if I could still communicate with my father anywhere, it is there. I can’t go to the cemetery — there are always fans there. This is the only thing I regret in connection with our common fame … When my parents separated and my mother and I moved to a hotel, tabloid journalists did not give us a moment’s rest. And my mother began to openly fight with them — swear, sue, threaten to break their cameras and heads. She is a fighter. I now admire her — so she fought for our freedom with Kate. I wouldn’t be able to do that. I’m sorry I’m not capable of drastic, final actions. I still feel bad about that Melancholia and Lars press conference in Cannes…

Do you regret not stopping von Trier when he said he understood Hitler?

Sh. G .: And this, and the fact that it was impossible to remain silent, it was necessary to somehow explain his words, somehow soften it. It was not necessary to condemn him, but it was necessary to show his position. But you know, it wouldn’t be me. I somehow do not show my positions in the word, loudly. I say, but differently.

Although, as you said, there were never any prohibitions on frankness in your family?

Sh. G .: I had many inhibitions and suppressed desires. The freedom of my parents did not make me freer than others. For a long time it was a horror for me to undress in public, not to mention the screen. I was terribly complex. Although even then I was vaguely aware that in painting, in photography, nudity touches, because the absence of covers, insecurity is really touching.

What do you feel when you see yourself on the screen without clothes?

Sh. G .: I accept myself much more than before. For a long time, seeing myself was a nightmare for me. But now it’s better. There are many things I don’t like about myself. But before I didn’t like my body, because I didn’t live in it. It has nothing to do with how it really is, fashionable or not. You just have to accept yourself. Accept that you are. This is the first stage — to accept yourself, well, just for physical comfort. But the second — as if forgetting about yourself. Do not attach such excessive importance to the physical. I was taught this by my sister, Kate, perhaps the closest person to me. She is a professional photographer. She taught me how to take pictures. But also take pictures! Kate took pictures of me, sometimes without clothes. She showed me me, found character in me. The pictures were far from always complimentary, but I learned to recognize myself in them. And acknowledge yourself. Now I am both shy and not at all shy at the same time. I like being looked at, I like being in front of the camera. In fact, I like it when someone else is looking at me, not me. When I can hide behind the role and behind the words — not my own — I can do things that I will never and never do in my life. Find freedom.

As an actress, you are very brave. Playing extreme nudity. Don’t be afraid of scenes of extreme violence. And at the same time, do you somehow take into account that you have children, that they can see these roles of yours?

Sh. G .: My parents never prevented themselves from doing what they wanted. “I love you … I don’t have you either”, the film that my father made as a director and where my mother played, I saw only at the age of 18, and I really liked it. The film is outwardly about how a homosexual leaves his lover for a barmaid who looks like a boy and has anal sex with her, because he does not know another. But in fact, about the fact that not everyone is able to love. It would be a pity if the parents, fearing to shock us, did not take it off. But they managed to keep us away from their experiments!

How would you feel if your children became actors like you did as a child?

Sh. G .: No pleasure. But I always believed that a child at any age should have his own life, which takes place separately from his parents. A person, even a small one, should have a zone of freedom, because freedom educates like no adult. I would like to take the children with me to the shooting, to be with them more in this way. But they have a school, friends, their own life. I no longer have the right to tear them away from her … And I will not oppose their decisions. But now child actors are actors first, and only then children. It was me who could act at the age of 10 and say: “Ha ha ha, I’m an actress during the holidays.” Here, recently, a venerable critic reminded me how he was a novice journalist and he was sent to interview a girl who, at the age of 12, “played great with Claude Miller” and reluctantly answered his questions, because she did mathematics … It was me. But now it’s not like that — the kids in the movies are completely «in business». So I’m not happy with this idea. And their father will rise to his death! He will not tolerate «another star» in the family. Ivan (Ivan Attal, actor and director, husband of Charlotte Gainsbourg. — Ed.) has already once made a film based on our life. And even the names of our heroes are Ivan and Charlotte. It’s called — «My wife is an actress.» And … mind you — this is a comedy.

• Why we don’t like ourselves in the photo