Charles Roizman: «It is necessary to overcome violence first of all in oneself»

Psychologies: Aggravation of ethnic conflicts, demonization of political leaders, domestic violence — you work with national, religious and political contradictions in different countries. Violence has no nationality?

Charles Roizman: Its seeds live somewhere deep in the heart of every person. Violence is generated by a dysfunctional environment, a lack of love, an inability to feel one’s own value. It can give different “shoots”, manifest itself in different ways. It largely depends on national and cultural characteristics, the conditions in which a person grows up. But social therapy is not about telling people how to live. Its goal is to help them better understand themselves and those around them. If such an understanding comes, then conflicts can be resolved — regardless of national and cultural characteristics.

You created a method of social therapy in the late 1980s. How did you come up with this idea?

Sh. R.: Then I was invited to a Parisian hospital, whose employees often dealt with immigrants. I was expected to talk about other cultures and give advice on how to build communication with their representatives. At that time, the fight against racism was in full swing. But I had the idea to try with medical staff what I practiced in my therapy groups: not to educate them, but to listen, to create a safe space in which they can freely talk about their professional difficulties and their racial prejudice. And when it happened, I made many discoveries. First, I discovered that there is always fear behind hate. Sometimes caused by real threats, but more often associated with past traumas. Secondly, I realized that in complex relationships, responsibility is never obvious. There is never a completely innocent and absolutely guilty party: it’s just that they learn to interact. And finally, I learned that manifestations of violence between people are also caused by violence from social structures. In that hospital, those at the bottom of the social ladder experienced the greatest difficulty in communicating with immigrants. And, themselves feeling the contempt of society, they, in turn, unwittingly forced to test it and others.

Is the reproduction of violence some kind of defense mechanism?

Sh. R.: Exactly. We have to admit that we are all victims of violence in one way or another. Someone experienced it in the family, at school, someone at work or in communication with neighbors. Violence is realized in one of four forms: one person rejects another; or humiliates him; or mistreats him; or makes him feel guilty. And often it manifests itself in several forms at once. Social therapy allows us to recognize the sources of violence in ourselves and see how, in moments of stress and confusion, we unconsciously reproduce it, directing it against our loved ones, children, and society as a whole. Or against themselves. Violence is ubiquitous and inevitable because it serves as a desperate attempt to heal our wounds and regain control of the situation. Therefore, in order to live in peace with each other, it is extremely important that everyone can work with their own aggressiveness, realize how difficult it is for them to be in conflict relations with others. Group therapy allows each participant (in opposition to others and with their support) to stop being a victim and feel their own responsibility, that is, to recognize their internal aggression and see the opportunity to change.

In your groups, for example, disadvantaged teenagers meet with parents, policemen, teachers. How do you manage to convince them to work together?

Sh. R.: Yes, it’s not easy. Often, group members do not unite of their own free will: for example, this may be a project of local authorities. When people hate each other, they are always convinced that there are good reasons for it. And getting started can be very difficult. It is important to explain that we are not going to listen to each other, but to solve some specific problem common to all. Let’s say some time ago I worked with employees of one post office and residents of neighboring houses. There was a terrible relationship there: residents complained about the racism of employees, and postmen were constantly robbed while they delivered letters. Everyone unanimously hated each other, but after all, the common goal was obvious: residents needed to receive mail, and postmen needed to calmly do their job.

Where do you start? You set the rules of behavior: speak on your own behalf, avoid manifestations of aggression …

Sh. R.: In no case! After all, to demand something from people means to underestimate them. It’s like saying: you are not what you should be, listen to me, I will explain what you should be. I create conditions that allow them to talk to each other. It is important for people to be able to tell the whole truth. And if I say to a teenager: “You can put everything that hurts you right in the eyes of the policeman, and the policeman himself will have to listen to you to the end,” then this proposal cannot but interest him. And I say the same to the policeman! The people gathered in my groups will have to live together after classes, discovering what they themselves are and understanding how those around them work. That is why I do not propose to contain hostility, on the contrary, I use it as an incentive to say everything, and as frankly as possible. This approach allows you to gradually explore all fears, all needs, and then overcome the perception of yourself as a victim.

You say that everyone has experienced violence and to a greater or lesser extent feels like a victim. So this is true for you as well?

Sh. R.: Yes. My childhood passed under the sign of denial of the past. My parents are Polish Jews. I knew about the Holocaust, but they hid from me what happened to my own family. It was only at the age of 35 that my maternal uncle told me that my father had four sons from his first marriage. All of them, along with their father’s brothers, sisters and parents, died during the massacre in the small Polish town where they lived … Father was not with them, he managed to enter the French Foreign Legion, fought, and then found refuge in France, where he met my mother. And in our relationship with him all my life combined love and hate. I couldn’t understand it then, but obviously it was directly related to the pain of losing his four sons, whom he idealized. After all, I was almost a stranger to him: a little Frenchman who read books — my father never learned to read and write French and preferred to speak Yiddish. And my mother … She had a kind of megalomania: she believed that one day I would save and glorify France. But this attitude was combined with the fact that she never really cared for me. I didn’t take me to the dentist, I didn’t teach me how to tie my shoelaces — I was taught this by a neighbor, the wife of a butcher.

Did your decision to become a psychotherapist have something to do with the desire to make sense of this childhood experience?

Sh. R.: Perhaps, but I went to him for a very long time. At the age of 17, having left my parental home, I had little idea who I was. And the period of wandering and searching for oneself continued … well, until about 50 years old. I was a private secretary to an Egyptian princess, a farmer and winemaker, taught French literature in Germany, became a comedian, married a German woman whose father was in the Wehrmacht… I didn’t have a clear goal, and at the first difficulty I jumped from one to another. He lived without rules and ideas about morality. I married several times, cheated on my wives very often, sometimes I had up to five mistresses. And then, finally, I became interested in psychology, because I wanted to understand the human soul. I have always been good on my own, and only working with my inner demons helped me see that my weak point is relationships with other people.

“STOP BEING A VICTIMS, RECOGNIZE YOUR OWN AGGRESSION AND SEE THE OPPORTUNITY TO CHANGE”