Carl Rogers advises Gloria

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Ter: (1) Hello, I’m Dr. Rogers, and you must be Gloria?

Kl: Yes.

Ter: (2) We have half an hour with you. /informing/ I don’t know what we will succeed, but I hope we will achieve something. /self-disclosure/ I would like to know what is bothering you? /open question/

Kl: To be honest, I’m nervous right now, but your voice is so deep, it’s soothing. I feel that you will not be strict with me.

Ter: (3) Trust me, I can feel the tremor in your voice. /self-disclosure/

KL: Basically I would like to talk about… I recently got divorced and after that I went to a therapist and felt great. And now, all of a sudden, the biggest change is adjusting to my single life. And one of the main things is the men that I bring home and how it affects the children. The most important thing on my mind is that I have found that my daughter, who is nine years old, has a lot of emotional problems. Heck! At least stop shaking. I feel very well what excites her, shocks her. I want nothing to worry her, nothing to shock her. I really want her to accept me. We are very open in conversations with each other, even about sex. Recently, she saw a pregnant girl and asked me how this could happen. And everything was fine, I didn’t feel uncomfortable until she asked me if I had been making love since my dad left. I deceived her, and since then I have not left the feeling of guilt. I don’t want to deceive her. I want her to trust me. I almost want an answer from you. I want you to tell me if it would be bad for her if I told her the truth?

Ter: (4) That worry about her and that you don’t really… do you feel like the open relationship that used to exist between you is now sort of gone? /paraphrasing/

Kl: Yes, because… I remember when I was little and found out that my dad and mom were making love, nasty and dirty, I almost stopped loving my mother for a while. And at the same time, I don’t want to deceive Pammy.

Ter: (5) I would really like to be able to give you an answer on what you should say to her. /self-disclosure/

Kl: I was afraid you were going to give an answer.

Ter: (6) Because what you really want is the answer. /interpretation/

Kl: I want to know what would have affected her more: if I had told her honestly or if I had lied. Because it seems to me that sooner or later a lie should lead to tension in a relationship.

Ter: (7) So you think that she will know or feel that something is wrong. /paraphrasing/

CL: Yes. It seems to me that sooner or later she will stop trusting me. Besides, it seems to me that when she grows up and suddenly gets into a sticky situation, she just won’t admit it to me, because she will think that either I’m all so good or terrible. I want her to accept me, but I don’t know how a nine-year-old girl can take it …

Ter: (8) So you’re worried about both alternatives: that she’ll think you’re better or worse than you really are. /paraphrasing/

Kl: No, no worse and no better than we really are — I want her to accept me for who I am. It seems to me that I drew such a picture for her that I am such a kind and good mother, although I am also ashamed of my dark side.

Ter: (9) Uh huh… let’s dig even deeper… /encouragement/support/ If she really knew you, would she be able to accept you? /open question/

Kl: Yes, I need to find out because I don’t want her to turn her back on me. I don’t even know how I feel about it myself, because there are times when I feel a huge sense of guilt. For example, if I bring a man home, then I arrange everything so that if I suddenly want to be alone with him, so that the children would by no means catch me. But at the same time, I understand that I still have these needs.

Ter: (10) In other words, the problem is not only in the relationship with her, but also in yourself. /paraphrasing/

KL: Yes, in my guilt complex. I often feel guilty.

Ter: (11) That is, how can I accept myself by behaving in this way. That is, the problem is in you … When you do everything so that you are not noticed, you do it out of guilt. /paraphrasing/

Kl: Yes, I want to be confident in what I’m doing. For example, if I decide not to tell Pammy the truth, then I want to be sure that she can express it, and at the same time I want to be frank with her, although I know that there is something in me that even I don’t I can accept.

Ter: (12) If you cannot accept them in yourself, how can you be sure that she will accept them. And at the same time, as you said, you have these desires and needs, but you are not comfortable with them. /paraphrasing/

Kl: You’re going to just sit, and you give me the opportunity to sort it all out, and I want more. I want you to help me get rid of the feeling of guilt because of lying or because of communicating with men.

Ter: (13) No, I don’t want to just leave you alone with your feelings, /self-disclosure/, but on the other hand, I feel that this is a very personal matter, I probably cannot answer for you. /confrontation/ But I’d like to do my best to help you find your own answer. /self-disclosure/ I don’t know if this makes any sense to you, but that’s what I’m aiming for. /encouragement/support/

Kl: Thank you. I appreciate it. But I have no idea which direction to go. I thought I had already dealt with these problems, but when this comes out … I am disappointed in myself. I like that when I do something, even if it goes against my morals, I feel confident. For example, I have a friend at work who is my mentor. I think she thinks I’m all so positive, and I certainly don’t want to show her my dark side. This disappoints me.

Ter: (14) There is disappointment in your voice. You felt that you had overcome all these problems and suddenly there is a feeling of guilt and a feeling that only a part of you can be accepted by others. /reflection of feelings/

Kl: Yes.

Ter: (15)… I think I caught your deep sense of confusion. «What should I do? What can I do about it? /reflection of feelings/

KL: And you know what I’ve found, doctor, whatever I do — talk to Pamela, go on a date — I feel great until I remember how it affected me when I was a child. And when I think about it, everything goes to hell. For example, I want to be a good mother and I think I am a good mother, but there are exceptions, for example, with work — I like to work, I like to have money, I like to work at night, but as soon as I remember that I am not behaving properly in relation to children, I again have a feeling of guilt. It is, you know, such a duality. I want to do something, and I feel like it’s the right thing to do, but then I remember that I could be a bad mother. I am becoming more and more aware of what a perfectionist I am. I either want to be perfect, or I don’t need to be perfect anymore.

Ter: (16) If you will allow me, I understand it a little differently: you want to seem perfect, it is very important for you to be a good mother, even if your feelings tell you otherwise. /paraphrasing/

CL: No, it’s not exactly like that. I always want to do everything right, , , but my actions do not allow me to do this.

Ter: (17) It seems that your actions are outside of you. You want to approve of yourself, but the way you act prevents you from doing so. /paraphrasing/

Cl: Right. Take, for example, my sex life. If I fell in love with a man, fell in love with him, it seems to me that after sleeping with him, I would not feel so guilty. And I wouldn’t have to come up with all sorts of excuses in front of the kids. But if I have attractions and I say to myself: “Why not”, then I feel completely different, I begin to hate people, myself and children. I also very rarely enjoy it. If the circumstances were somewhat different, then I would not feel so guilty, on the contrary, I would feel great.

Ter: (18) I understand it like this: if what I did when I got into bed with a man was sincere, full of love and respect, then I would not feel guilty in a relationship with Pammy, I would be comfortable. /paraphrasing/

CL: Yes. Exactly. I know it sounds like a utopia, but that’s what I think. But still I can’t stop all the desires. I tried… I told myself that I don’t like myself when I do this, so it’s better not to do it. But then I start to pour it out on the kids: why should they stop me, it’s not so bad.

Ter: (19) … I think I heard that not only children, but you yourself do not like it when this happens. /paraphrasing/

Kl: It’s true, but I only pay attention to it when I take my anger out on the kids. Only then do I pay attention to myself.

Ter: (20) So you sometimes blame them for how you feel. I mean, why should they stop you from the normal sex life you lead. /paraphrasing/

Cl: Well, the sex life is not normal. Something in me tells me that this is not normal. Going to bed with a man just out of attraction and physical need.

Ter: (21) Sometimes you feel that your actions do not meet your internal standards. /paraphrasing/

Cl: That’s right, that’s right.

Ter: (22) But you also say you can’t resist it. /paraphrasing/

Cl: I can’t. I would like to, but I can’t. It seems to me that I do not control myself the way I used to, for a specific reason. I just relaxed and did too much wrong. I’m ashamed of it and I don’t like it. Although I assume that you will not answer, I still really would like you to answer my question: “Do you think it is important to be frank with children. And if I am frank with them, will I not hurt them thereby. For example, I will go up to Pammy and say: “I am ashamed, I deceived you and I want to tell you the truth.” I want to know if I told her the truth how much it would shock and upset her. I want to get rid of my guilt, but I don’t want to shift the responsibility onto her. Would I harm her? I really want you to give me a direct answer.

Ter: (23) I think you’ll think I’m being evasive /self-disclosing/ but it seems that the one you’re not completely honest with is yourself. /confrontation/ Because I was really touched when you said: /self-disclosure/ “If I felt okay about what I’m doing — getting into bed with a man, or whatever — then I wouldn’t worried about my relationship with Pammy and what to say to her.» /repetition/

Cl: Right. Quite right. I understand what you mean… Then I would like to work on learning to accept myself. I want to feel good. It makes sense. If it comes naturally, then I won’t have to worry about Pammy… But if I know it’s bad, but I still impulsively do it, how can I accept it?

Ter: (24) That is, you want to learn to accept yourself doing, as you think, bad deeds. /paraphrasing/

KL: Right… I feel like you are now asking why I think this is bad. I don’t have a definitive answer myself. Of course, I can say that all women feel this. It’s natural, although we rarely talk about the fact that all women have this desire … and I have, because for 11 years I had sex regularly, but still I think it’s bad if you don’t love this person . But my body seems to think otherwise. I don’t know how to take it.

Ter: (25) It’s kind of a triangle… you feel like I, or another therapist, or people in general, are telling you, «It’s natural, it’s normal.» And it looks like your body is on our side too. /belief/ But something inside you says you don’t like it, that it’s bad. /paraphrasing/ Right? /short question/

Cl: Right. I feel hopeless. I myself understand everything perfectly, so what?

Ter: (26) So you think that this is the conflict. And that it will not be resolved. Out of hopelessness, you turn to me, and from your point of view, I am not helping you either. /paraphrasing/

Cl: Right. I know that you cannot answer this question, that I myself must answer it, but I would like you to help me, to guide me and at least tell me where to start, and then the situation will not seem like this hopeless. I know that I can live with this conflict, that sooner or later everything will work out, but I would like to feel more comfortable with the way I live. And right now, I don’t feel that way.

Ter: (27) Well, let me ask you a question: «What would you like me to tell you?» /open question/

Kl: I would like you to tell me, “Take a risk and be honest. Take a chance, whether Pammy accepts you or not. I have this feeling that if I can take a chance on Pammy, if a little kid accepts me, then I’m not bad at all, not the devil at all. If she accepts and loves me for who I am, then this will help me accept myself. I want you to say, «Take a chance and tell her the truth.» But I don’t want to take responsibility if I hurt her.

Ter: (28) In other words, you know what you want in your relationship. You want to be yourself and let her know that you are not a perfect person at all, and that you, too, can do things that she will not like, which even you may not like, but that she still loves you and accepts you as an imperfect person. /paraphrasing/

KL: It’s just that I sometimes think that if my mother had been as open with me, maybe I wouldn’t have such a narrow understanding of sex. If I knew that she can also be sexy, seductive, I would not look at her as a sweet, good mother, I would also see another side of her that she did not talk about at all. I want Pammy to see me as a complete woman and also accept me.

Ter: (29) I don’t think you’re being very sincere here. /confrontation/

Kl: Not sincere… what do you mean?

Ter: (30) I mean you sit here and tell me what you would like to do about your relationship with Pammy. /confrontation/

KL: That’s right, but I don’t want to risk it until the authority tells me it’s worth it.

Ter: (31) One thing I feel very strongly about is that it’s very risky to live… /self-disclosure/ In a relationship with Pammy, you have a chance to let her know who you really are. /advice/

CL:…Yes, but if I don’t risk it and be loved by her, then I will never feel satisfied.

Ter: (32) Uh-huh. If her love for you is based on a false picture, then why all this. /paraphrasing/ Is that what you mean? /open question/

CL: Yes. But I also understand that being a mother is a very big responsibility. I can’t hurt a child in any way. I don’t want to take responsibility. I don’t want to think that this could be my fault.

Ter: (33) Uh-huh. This is exactly what I meant when I said that life is a risky thing. /self-disclosure/ Being the way you want is a very big responsibility and risk. /informing/

Kl: Yes.

Ter: (34) And very scary. /reflection of feelings/

Kl: You know, it’s a double-edged sword: on the one hand, if I tell them the truth, I know that no matter what I say to them, and no matter how badly they perceive me, it’s still somewhere in the depths of the relationship will be much lighter and more honest. On the other hand, I am terribly jealous when they are with their father. He allows them more. He’s more fake, he’s not as honest, he doesn’t criticize them and that’s why they see him as positive. In their eyes, he is good. And I envy him because I want them to see me as good. Although I know that he is not at all what they think, more than anything I want such an attitude.

Ter: (35) So you think this: I want them to think of me as well as of their father. And since my father is not very honest with them, I can also be insincere. /paraphrasing/

Kl: Well, insincere is probably too strong a word, but in general, somewhere close. In addition, I know that I am more direct than their father, so I am more likely to do things that they may not like.

Ter: (36) I get the impression that it’s hard for you to believe that if they knew you well, they would still love you. /paraphrasing/

CL: Absolutely right. Before I went into therapy, I probably would have chosen a different path. I would win their respect, no matter what the cost, even if I had to deceive them. But now I know that this is completely wrong, but I’m not completely sure that they will fully accept me. Something tells me that they will accept me. But I need XNUMX% certainty.

Ter: (37) It’s like you’re in no man’s land — you’re moving from one point of view to another, you’re in between and you’re hoping someone will show up next to you and say, «You’re doing everything right. Keep it up». /paraphrasing/

CL: Yes. That is why I am so encouraged when I read from people I respect that I am doing the right thing, no matter where it leads. This gives me confidence that, thank God, I’m right.

Ter: (38) It’s insanely hard to make a choice on your own, /encouragement/support/ isn’t it? /short question/

KL: It makes me feel immature. I would like to be an adult and mature so that I can make my own choices and follow them. But I always need someone to push me in the right direction.

Ter: (39) You would like to move in the right direction, not to doubt it and appreciate yourself for it. /paraphrasing/

Kl: I’d like to take more risks so that when the kids grow up I’ll be able to say «I did my best» and not have this conflict. So that I can tell them: “No matter what you ask, I always told you only the truth. You may not like it, but it has always been true. This is what I respect. I don’t respect people who lie. Now you see what a hypocrite I am. I don’t like being bad, but I also hate lying. So I want to accept myself more.

Ter: (40) You know, judging by your intonation, it seems to me that you hate yourself more when you lie than when you do things that you yourself do not approve of. /belief/

CL: Yes. Exactly. This worries me a lot. This happened a month ago and has been in my head ever since. I don’t know whether to remind her and tell her, or maybe she forgot at all, but …

Ter: (41) Yes, but you haven’t forgotten. /confrontation/

Kl: I haven’t forgotten you! And I wish I could tell her that I remember that I lied and I’m sorry and that it drives me crazy that I did it. You know, I feel like the problem is solved. It’s not allowed, of course, but I feel relieved. I feel like you’re telling me… you’re not giving me advice, but I feel like you’re saying, «You know what pattern you want to follow, Gloria, so go ahead, follow it.» This is a kind of support from you.

Ter: (42) I take it a little differently. /self-disclosure/ You said you know what you’d like to do. /paraphrasing/ Yes, I believe in the support people get in what they do. /self-disclosure/

C: So you mean…

Ter: (43) What I’m trying to say is that I don’t think it’s helpful to do something that you haven’t chosen /self-disclosure/ so I’m trying to reveal all the choices. /informing/

KL: But here again the conflict, because I myself am not sure how I want to do it. If I bring a man home, I’m not sure if I want to have sex if I know I’ll feel guilty afterwards. So apparently I didn’t want to.

Ter: (44) One second, I’ll try to find the words. /self-disclosure/ That is, you do not approve of your actions if you go against yourself. /paraphrasing/

KL: Yes… You see, it’s not about doing something or not, going to work in the morning or not going, it’s easy, but if I understand that I’m doing something that I’m not sure about, then I automatically think to myself: «If you’re not sure about it, then it’s bad.» I want to ask you, if I myself do not like it, do I really have to put up with it? I sense a contradiction here.

Ter: (45) You seem to feel conflicted within yourself. From what I understand, you like it when you are sure of what you are doing. /paraphrasing/

CL: Yes. I had this when I made my decision. But sometimes I do things that I’m completely unsure of. There is a conflict here, but it is completely different. How am I supposed to follow my true feelings, if I know that then my conscience will bite me.

Ter: (46) I understand… /encouragement/support/ Because at the moment you may feel that this is a true feeling. /paraphrasing/

CL: Yes. When I start doing this — everything is fine …

Ter: (47) Yes, it’s difficult. / encouragement / support / If you are confident at first and then lose confidence, then it is not clear which course you should follow. /paraphrasing/

Cl: You know what’s most interesting? I don’t know how you understand me. For example, for several years I wanted to leave my husband, , , but refrained from doing so. I had a feeling that I needed to do this. When I did this, I felt great. I didn’t feel angry, I knew I did the right thing. And no conflicts, no remorse. It happens when I am in touch with my feelings. But very often small everyday decisions are not given so easily. So many conflicts arise. This is fine?

Ter: (48) Actually, yes. /information/ You say that you know very well the feeling when you do something right, good for yourself. /paraphrasing/

CL: Yes. I know and I miss that feeling so much.

Ter: (49) When you listen to yourself, you say: no, no, it’s wrong, it’s bad for me, but often you do it anyway. /paraphrasing/

Kl: Sometimes I think, my God, well, it’s just a situation, circumstances, I’ll remember it for the future. I have mentioned this to other therapists and many of them laugh and giggle when I say the word «utopia». When I follow the experiences and experience this wonderful feeling inside of me, it is like a utopia. That’s what I mean. I like this experience, good or bad. But I feel like it’s right for me.

Ter: (50) So in these «utopian» moments you feel whole. /paraphrasing/

KL: Yes, this feeling is dear to me.

Ter: (51) Many of us don’t experience it that often, so I understand you very well… /self-disclosure/ Yes, you can see that it is especially dear to you. /encouragement/support/

KL: You know what else I just thought? I… this is stupid… what if I suddenly say this to you, I thought: “Oh, how nice it is to talk to you, and I want you to approve me, and I respect you, but I’m sorry that my father could not speak to me like that , how are you». I would like to say: «I would like you to be my father.» I don’t even know why it came to my mind.

Ter: (52) You seem to me quite a nice, pleasant daughter. /self-disclosure/ And what you really miss is that you couldn’t be open with your father. /paraphrasing/

Kl: I couldn’t be so open with him, but I don’t blame him for that. I was already more open than he allowed. He never listened to me the way you listen, without judgment. Recently, I thought: “Why do I have to be so perfect?” And I understood why. Because he demanded it from me. He always demanded that I be better than I am.

Ter: (53) So you’ve always tried to be what he wants you to be. /paraphrasing/

KL: And at the same time I protest. For example, recently I almost glowed with joy when I wrote him a letter that I work as a waitress at night. I wanted to tell him: “Look what I am. But at the same time, I want him to love me. I really need his love.

Ter: (54) You wanted to kind of wash him. /paraphrasing/

CL: Yes! I wanted to tell him: “You raised me, how do you like it?” And you know what I want to hear from him? I want him to say, «I knew it would be like this, but I still love you.»

Ter: (55) But there is very little chance that he will say so. /reflection of feelings/

KL: No, he won’t say that. He doesn’t hear me. I visited him about two years ago to let him know that I love him, although I’m afraid. But he does not hear me, he keeps repeating the same thing: «I love you, I love you.»

Ter: (56) That is, he did not know you, but he loved you. /paraphrasing/ Does that make you cry? /open question/

KL: You know, when I talk about it, it feels like a punch. If I just sit still for a minute, it feels like a big wound right here.

Ter: (57) So it’s easier to be frivolous, because then you don’t feel a big wound inside. /interpretation/

Cl: Uh-huh. I tried to work on myself and realized that I had to accept as a fact that my father is not the type of man that I like — understanding, loving and caring. That is, of course, he loves me and takes care of me, but not at the level at which we could communicate.

Ter: (58) You feel robbed. /reflection of feelings/

CL: Yes. That’s why I need replacements. I enjoy talking to you, I like men I could respect — doctors and the like. And I pretend that we are really close. You see, I’m looking for a replacement for my father.

Ter: (59) I don’t feel like this is a sham. /self-disclosure/

Kl: But you’re not really my father.

Ter: (60) Not yours, but I mean real intimacy. /self-disclosure/

KL: Well, you know… I kind of feel like I’m faking it because I can’t expect you to feel very close to me. You don’t know me that well.

Ter: (61) All I can know is how I feel…and at the moment I feel close to you.4) /self-disclosure/

This recording of the session is taken from the video Three Approaches to Psychotherapy (CR Rogers, 1965), in which the same client, Gloria, had three thirty-minute sessions with Carl Rogers, Fritz Perls, and Albert Ellis.

3) As preliminary information, clarifying the context of this session, it is worth mentioning that prior to this conversation, Rogers had never seen this woman and knew that his contact with her would be limited to half an hour in front of the cameras. In a pre-session introduction, Rogers described what he hoped to be with her. He said that first of all he would strive to be authentic, he would try to be aware of his inner feelings and express them in a way that would not impose on her. Secondly, he hopes to be caring with the client, appreciate her as a person, accept her. Thirdly, he will try to understand her inner world from the inside, he will try to understand not only superficial meanings, but also those meanings that are hidden in the depths. “If I succeed in fulfilling these three conditions, then I expect that something definite will happen to the client … from alienation from inner experiences, the client will move towards their more direct awareness and expression; from disapproving of parts of oneself to greater acceptance of oneself; from relational fear to more direct relationships, from rigid black-and-white reality constructs to more flexible constructs, and from external locus of evaluation to finding the locus of evaluation in one’s own inner experience” (Meador, B. & Rogers, C., 1984).

4) As an afterword to this session, I would like to quote the following quote “Once or twice a year Gloria wrote to Rogers, telling him about significant events in her life, about periods when she was sad and she felt lost, as well as about periods of advancement and growth. Her memory of the interview is one of warm, genuine human contact. Once upon a question from a psychology student, “What if there is only a short time to work with a client?” Rogers replied: «If you only have 30 minutes, make those 30 minutes worthwhile» (Meador B. & Rogers C., 1984).